Looking to start a discussion on integrated Amplifiers. I would love to hear both arguments. Is modern technology (outside of dacs) superior? Or is a 20 year old similarly spec’d amplifier just as good? Is a 20 year old high end amp just as capable of a high end amp today?
I have a Sansui AU-719 I picked up for $50 a couple years ago. Other than needing a recap it looks new and sounds pretty good to me.
If it was a good amp back then it’s almost certainly still a good amp now.
The NAD C3020 comes to mind as an example of an excellent older amp.
NAD 3020i user here and I would never part with it.
NAD C3020
My office system agrees with you ;)
With respect to the power amplifier component of integrated amps, Class D has vastly improved over the last 20 years. So a 20 year old class D may be obsolete whereas so modern class D is arguably the state of the art for power amplification. Class A & AB has not changed appreciably over that timeframe. The best Class D today competes with Class AB in sound quality and can outperform driving difficult loads.
With respect to the preamp section, incorporating tube buffers in the preamp section has become more common and can introduce a very pleasing sonic character vs solid state preamplifier sections. Whether that’s an improvement is a matter of taste. But it’s more accessible now with broader availability in lower priced gear.
Likewise all tube integrated amplifiers are more broadly available at lower prices for those who enjoy tubes.
My system uses a Bottlehead preamp and phono preamp and a Hypex power amp and that combo sounds fantastic. It’s not an integrated amp, but the point is the combination of tube preamp and class D power pairs extremely well in my experience.
There is nothing that can compete with Class D amplification when everything (physical footprint, efficiency, heat emissions, etc.) is taken into account.
Whether you personally care for the “sound” or approach it with preconceived ideas about “sterility” vs. the supposed “warmth” of AB is a different issue.
AB or A amps are similar in performance to what they were 20 years ago, but preamps have come a long way lately IMO.
What is the general impression of older Arcam amps? I got a Alpha 10 for an absolute steal and think it sounds great but I haven’t had any other amps before it as a point of reference.
The classic linear amplifiers are well studied and things have improved over time as semiconductor technology has. If this improvement translates in better sound is debatable, I’d say that better passive components and power supplies improve sound much more. Class D is another story, it’s a rapidly evolving technology.
It’s just amplifiers, not Amplifiers. You don’t just randomly capitalize the subject or target of your sentence.
You do if it’s a title, which it technically is.
who Cares
All technology has improved over time. You can scale this to computers, phones, audio/video, cameras etc.
That said you can find high end amplifiers from decades past restored or maintained that still sound amazing. They won’t be as reliable and improvements in components, headroom, distortion, etc. usually are better in the more modern designs.
With integrated this effect gets much more pronounced. Since many of the manufacturers are cramming all the things in the box, making a Swiss Army knife if you will, you may be more prone to failures and certainly the phono stage and DAC will edge towards obsolescence.
Still, they can sound great. I’d easily jump on a older model Pass INT (he excludes DACS and phono), a Luxman, or an Integrated tube amplifier from years back. I’d aim to exclude the other stuff like phono and definitely a DAC (as you mentioned).
One persons opinion.
I recently picked up an Onkyo M-5030 power amp and a Nikko Beta II preamp. They are from the late 70’s/early 80’s and sound pretty amazing considering the age. Both devices need some love but as is in survivor condition they both sound fantastic.
I picked up a Musical Fidelity A3.5 for 650 the other day. These were almost 4K back in the day (adjusted for inflation) and it sounds tremendous.
I don’t think amplification itself has changed much. The concern is wear over the years. But general maintenance and even cap replacement is easy peasy for a competent service person.
Musical Fidelity A3.5
And check that knob feel!
You might compare a 1990 amp like the Aragon 2004 (dubbed the poor mans Krell)
with a recent offering like Audiophonics HPA-S400ET, a class D (purify).
Obvious technology has improved and US$ 1,638 buys you a lot of power with extremely low distortion.
Modern Class D is different. Class AB hasn’t changed much
The answer is: It depends.
I can get an integrated amp made in 2022 from supermarket for less than fity bucks and I bet it will sound terrible in coparison to a thirty year old second hand amp in the same price category that has been made well and will sound way better.
Good amp design is not necesarrily all about components or technology. It is also about compromises and which compromises have been made where.
Another example: I recently finished building my own integrated amp based on EL34 tubes. Though it sounds “fantastic”, it is a pain in the ass to maintain long term and gets hot in relation to a solid state amp in the same price category. It is also not easy on the elctricity bill.
I believe it all comes down to the design philosophy used, which translates to the parts, circuit design and trade-offs that are made.
Nah. It’s more like, cheap amps got way better. They’d be close.
I’m close to pulling the trigger on a Bryston B135³ .